Correction: In actuality all maps are different.....we just play them the same way. In Fractal and Pyramid you stand in one place and shoot into the air and not at someone. And in Viridian and Stalwart, you can stand in one place, but most people shoot in one direction then turn and shoot in the opposite direction, again not at someone but in hopes of hitting someone. Both are the same concept. I just don't see the challenge or fun or any skill involved. But I have been wrong before....lol

You should love Fractal and Pyramid as they are only driving method/strategy !!!... Try to complete it and you'll see what skill in UT means !... (ask Mah's [or others] opinion)

But I don't want any opinion conflict or any polemic...

Anybody remember Torpid ?? He used to be the King of hook-shots, standing behind a pillar ...

-N6NU

Oh yes !!! LOL

I understand and have accepted that firing into thin air can be a technique or strategy, especially in the smaller maps where you have no choice but to hide behind something and spray and pray. People win this way all the time. I think I 've even done it a time or two, but where is the challenge or the fun in doing it? I don't find it challenging, shooting into thin air, even when everyone else is doing it as well. When it comes to those maps I'll sit and watch....or better yet I'll telefrag the one guy behind the pillar that shoots into the air in hopes of hitting someone.....lol

Yes I remeber Torp and miss him

Dear Meat,

First, you are a great player. Unlike many others, you wait and watch for the origin of missiles, and then move in for your kill. You'd think this were an obvious rule to follow, but I tell newbs all the time to refrain from firing as soon as they spawn.

OK, now to address your question, which has been debated many times in N6NU's great forum.

If all things were static, then shooting into the air would be boring and unchallenging and skill-less. But people move; people know where others hide and hook; others are going for the same strategy on the other side of the map; etc etc.

There is always a way to root out someone who is dug in like a tick. On those maps where there are invincible spots (like the old Fractal), players have insisted that podding is unacceptable. Anything goes, anywhere, but the one requirement is that you be fraggable. One player has even altered Fractal for this reason.

Why is it that the first person to spawn behind a box isn't always the winner? It always helps to be lucky with regard to spawn location, but this is true of regular UT. Moreover, there is no guarantee you can hold on to your spot. People will come at you with the transloc (like you!); people will lay a heavy finger on the trigger and keep firing at your spot; people will deliberately suicide in order to make you suicide (I do this all the time when I spawn on top of the box in Deck16 and someone has been looping me from there all night).

You might continue to contend that there is no skill involved, since ping and connection speed give unfair advantage to some in small maps. Of course there is an advantage there -- same as in every online game. However, again, people with 56K win *all the time* on small maps. Deadman Walking, perhaps our oldest player on CG (and thus, I guess, with the worst reflexes [sorry DM]), is a case in point. So is an oldie named Clem (who goes by other names now and is unrecognizable to me).

What is the fun? Same joys as in every other game. Knowing someone else is going for a fast rate of frags, and knowing how to stop him. Knowing someone is coming for you, but successfully using defensive measures (hooks). Knowing that the number of players, who they are, what methods they are using right then, and what part of the map they own right then, all affect what strategy you should employ in order to beat them and win.

But the main joy, which is totally UNIQUE to redeemers, is M-M-M-M-M-M-M-MONSTERKILLS!

Try for it one of these days. Spread like crazy. No one will blame you for it. You'll see how addictive those monsterkills can be!

I hope this helps you enjoy the game more!

Mah

Mah, Clem was recently using another fruit name (I forgot which one) but I know it's him because of the score !!! lol)

Hang on Mah while I catch my breath from reading your response...lol
You make a convincing case Mah.....And you may not know it but you nailed it on the head when you mentioned the other guys. I still see no challenge/skill or fun in firing into empty space, you can't defend that because we all can do it and if we play enough and find that one spot we'll win most of the time. But the challenge/skill/fun I am looking for is trying to stop that one guy that sits and fires into the air. People here care about winning, regardless of how they do it and then they'll bitch and complain when they don't win (I'll bitch when I lose to someone that does not deserve it like killing 30 bots and not me once and then thinks he is better then me.) But my joy now and the challenge I found is killing the best guys, like yourself, more then they kill me. Win or lose. Not by getting lucky kills but by out smarting them.
And another thing...lets get rid of all bots. Sure we need bots when we're the only person playing but as soon as two people arrive all bots should leave.....just an idea.
PS: Thanks Mah for opening my eyes to the real challenge I was looking for. And keep that in mind the next time we meet....I'm after you more then you are after me...lol

You know Meat, I'm just thinking about one thing : it seems the game of your dreams isn't always in Deemer but I'm sure that you surely could take fun/challenge in sniper games.
I do and it's different but you can't find guys "shooting in the air" and pray (as you say) and even if I don't find the fun I have in deemer, I'm really pleased on some sniping servers which are full of good guys too !!
May be you could snipe sometimes ?...
... an single thought...

Also, if I may ammend to Mah's response, Sometimes my shooting in the air is not for offensive reasons. It is to detonate the incoming nukes before they get to me.

The obvious thing to state here is that there are many different strategies that people employ. Some are strickly hide and guide, some are spray and pray. The BEST of the best know all of the tactics and more and can use them at will in any situation. THIS is the skill that you are refering to.

I would love for you to have played in the "Golden" years of redeemers. I can assure you that you would have found it most challenging. Most of the old regs do not play any more. Someone mentioned Torpid. You would have been AMAZED at how that dude moved. He was a sight to see.

So in essence, use whatever strategy that you like. On the smaller maps, your challenge is to root out the player with the prefered spot and take it without dying. Then you must defend it WHILE racking up the kills to win.
If you think that this does not take skill, then you are missing the whole point of this mod.
I hope that this helps you understand my line of thinking as well as many others.

OH! Speaking of skill.
I think it would be awesome if you actually watched Mahatma on some maps. If you do not think it takes skill to stay in the center of a map and defend that position while you are COMPLETELY exposed, wracking up MMMMMONSTER KILL after MMMMMONSTER KILL then you will never know the joy that is truely this mod.
Just my opinion.
You know what they say,
Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one... Mine just smells nicer

Did someone say there should be fewer bots? That's cool with me. I'll change it down to min player count = 3. That way, if you are the only real person playing, you will at least have 2 bots to shoot at. What else? Come on...don't be afraid to complain.

Well what do ya know. A thread about UT. How the hell did this happen. Can't we talk about politics, sports or religion instead. Or perhaps the MAC/PC debate again.

Ok enough of me being a smart ass.

I hate to say this but after breezing through this thread I actually found I may be in agreement mith Mah. Everyone mark this date down on their calendars.

Let's face it. Any strategy you use in order to win at this mod is acceptable. We've all gone through the learning process and have all used one of the numerous methods as our regular game plan, or a combination of methods or the method that's best suited to the map your playing at that particular time.

I to hate the 30 second maps but claiming that there is a lack of skill in order to win isn't entirely true. Though I also have poked fun at folks that enjoyed these maps and didn't really see the point in playing them it's really not fair to say those who win those maps have no skills. For if they didn't have skills why would you be at the bottom of the list looking up.

As far as repeated taunts go I can't see how that's a problem. If I'm not mistaken there were a couple of the "Old Guard" that did it on a regular basis. Mah, cannonfodder and myself included. The repeating of "Man Down!" , "Medic!" and "I'm Hit!" can be quite amusing.

As far as Bots go I have to agree with you to a point Meat. Bots are ok as long as they have some skill. Bots that stand around or don't have much skill just make it easier for the new guys to rack up there score a bit without having to deal with "regulars". Then again it does serve the purpose of keeping the new guys around to play because they think they have a chance of winning. Without the new meat the game will die a much quicker death. If you want to keep playing this game you have to cater to the new crowd a bit. Once the numbers decline to a certain point bye bye deemer servers. Shit you already see it. Where is SRA, NWRO and Kid's. I would opt for a few bots (no more than 3) and have them at least somewhat skilled.

Hey by the way Herm any idea why I can only play one map on your server and then I just hang out waiting indefinitely for the next map? I actually have to manually reconnect which puts me at a distinct disadvantage. Not too mention that it puts a definite crimp in my "Return of the Fah" bid.

Don't get me wrong...(actually get me wrong) but skill is in the eye of the beholder. Try this, you get 4 skilled/good players and only one of them is in the middle of a room shooting into the air hoping for a kill. I guarantee you the other 3 good players are going to be sitting on the side watching and laughing at this guy. A better player knows not to show his face. All this guy is doing is shooting in hopes of hitting spawns and newbies that have no clue. Good strategy yes because you have to learn the map and know where to hide and shoot. But skill doing it...not really because we all can do it. But again...people win this way all the time and are happy doing it and will continue to win this way. Especially in the smaller maps. God love them.
That is why I would love to see less bots and more one on one play. Anyone can shoot into the air and kill bots, newbies, spawns...etc To me it's not a challenge or should I say not exciting. I like the thrill and challenge of chasing a guy down with the redeemer or hunting the guy out with the redeemer. Or better yet, hunting a player down on foot and then deeming or telefraging his butt. That is skill.
Of sure I'll shoot into the air a time or two but I'll be spraying and praying.
As for taunts being amusing, hmm....my five year old found it curious...lol I find it somewhat annoying but I guess that's the reason for doing it?
Just one mans opinion...lol

PS: Where is a good sniper site LePoloo?

One thing is coming back to my mind : in the CG server automatic messages, there was one that was saying something about "You say it's not skill so, why haven't you won yet ?"

And you'll see that Meat : when you start to win "regulary" in Fractal or Pyramid, then you know you have skill !!! More, you do know you're becoming a good player. Especially when you have a bad ping !!!...
You know you're on the good way to be a good player when noobs call you "cheater" ! LooOOooL

This is a challenge : winning even with a great lag !... LOL

And I'm not different than the others : when you don't like a map, you're not good in it !... what is cruel is : when you're not good in a map, you don't like it !.. The circle is closed...